Support to trade your way in ‘A New Era’ & BIBA Conference reflections

Graeme Trudgill - Hello, I'm Graeme Trudgill, the Chief Executive of BIBA, and I'm joined here by Dave Martin, the MD of Aviva. We're right after the BIBA conference, which was our biggest ever event, record numbers. At one point, Dave even took his jacket off. He was so hot, but he kept the tie on at all times, I hasten to say. So, we're gonna chat through some of the key things about conference and some of the key things about BIBA and Aviva, so welcome. So, I guess first question is, how was the BIBA conference for Aviva and yourself?

Dave Martin - Look, the BIBA conference was absolutely brilliant this year. You could probably tell from my voice, I haven't quite got my voice back even nearly a week on. So, from that point of view, you look at just the sheer breadth of the people there. What's always fascinating to me is how many people we need in this industry to ensure customer outcomes are protected. From all sorts of suppliers, specialists, brokers, insurers, it just brought us all together to actually concentrate on what the new era looks like and how we start to serve customers. From Aviva point of view, we had a stand, it was very, very busy throughout the whole time. Very good sentiment around what we're trying to do and how we're trying to expand in the UK market. But most importantly, how we're trying to support brokers, in particular regional brokers, in what is quite difficult macroeconomic conditions. Of course, it wouldn't be a BIBA, without me mentioning the great Human League act. Which were a joy to experience. But look, I think seriously, the most important thing is, in our calendar, we go to BIBA, we talk and we listen to what brokers have to say. At the same time, we have our off-sites with our management teams this week and we do corporate planning next week. So, what we try to do within our corporate calendar is we try to listen to what the market has to say, we try to bag that into a strategy that says, this is what our brokers need, this is how we're going to serve the market, this is how we're going to get to customers. We will work out through this week how we're going to structure that, we'll then agree with our group, how what that looks like in plan. And then hopefully we'll be at BIBA next year again and we'll be saying, look, you said, and we did. And it was great this year to be able to sit with some brokers to say, do you remember being sat on this stand 12 months ago and you asked us to do this? Well, here it is. And that's absolutely what we want to see.

Graeme Trudgill - And I think that's what regional brokers like about you, that you are listening. And because, I mean, I used to be a regional broker and we liked having regional branches, you know, close by, I think it makes a big difference to that local service. So, what are you doing in that space when they say to you, you know, are you opening any regional branches? What have you done? Because in COVID, we had a lot of branches from general insurers close. So, what's your approach on serving regional brokers with regional branches?

Dave Martin - So, regional brokers are the heartlands of our entire business. So, if you actually look at what we've done, we've opened a new branch in Southampton and we opened a new branch in Chelmsford. Only a couple of weeks ago, we announced the Cardiff opening to a serve that market as well. And there's a number of different things that does. One, it gives us underwriters with local knowledge to make local decisions. And we empower those branches entirely to make those decisions autonomously from the main part of the business. And that's really important. Clearly, we have appropriate controls in place, but what's most important is those brokers, those brokers receive the service from underwriters that know the areas and know what they're talking about. The other thing is, you know, we've talked about war on talent at BIBA last year. The one thing that actually happens here is we're able to recruit people more regularly, more easily by opening branches in those neighbourhoods. And if you look at Cardiff alone, we've already announced five new appointments to the Aviva group of senior underwriters, which otherwise would not have been accessible to us. So, we listened to our brokers. The reason we've opened those branches is they're the branches the brokers asked us to open last year. We continue to look across the UK at where our hubs are and whether there's other pockets we need to do. But of course we expanded Newcastle, Birmingham, Manchester, Belfast and Glasgow as well last year. So, everything is about visibility, providing responsiveness to our brokers and making sure our brokers understand we're absolutely committed to local markets, local decision making and providing real risk transfer that always protect customer outcomes.

Graeme Trudgill - We definitely have seen an increasing service across the board. So well done for that. I know members will appreciate it. Let's talk about some of the service that you provide to things like eTrade for our members. Our members really like eTrade, but it needs to be flexible. And if you get a client who's, you know, they need £10 million of PL, but the eTrade only gives five, you don't want to be having to phone the insurer and waiting in the queue and everything else. We'd like to have more flexible eTrade. So, how is your eTrade developing now for members?

Dave Martin - eTrade in particularly Fast Trade business is being hugely successful over the last few years. And if you look at the data accuracy, we're driving out of those models now, we are managing to use AI to start to predict street pricing and start to predict whole aspects of client need and outcome. So, if you look at how we serve that to brokers, you look at the opportunity we have to actually one, provide integrative pricing to give premium flex and both commission flex to make sure brokers get paid fairly for the work they do. 'Cause it's very difficult for me to judge whether a client takes one day to be served or five days. And this is all about making sure brokers have the fair remuneration for what they do and making sure that the client gets the outcome that they need. So, as we drive Fast Trade forward, we're starting to make available a whole host of different things, certainly the underinsurance, which is well publicised in terms of what we're trying to do. We've pulled our databases together over a flood in a host of other aspects of those enrichment calls, but also making sure that we recognise within the trade codes themselves, the sort of likely trade risks that will be in there and we give risk management advice. We try to make sure that our brokers can understand and access what we're likely to be asking them next. I think alongside is that, obviously, we still do all the sorts of things you'd expect us to do, the premium finance, the telephony, which is in the mid-90s, quote turned around immediately in e-trade, but we tried to target ourselves with calling back within two hours on any referral. Even in our Mid-Market business and it comes out of digital, 70% of all our MTAs are now done on the same day. And as a risk manager, that's really important to me that I know those exposures exist in our business and I know a client needs a change and that client gets the change they need. So, you look at how we're then taking the success of the digital business and we're moving into our mid-market business, they are starting to become aligned, albeit statistical relevance means that an underwriter will need to make a decision in the digital mid-market world, whereas in our Fast Trade world, we're able to make decisions through automated pricing.

Graeme Trudgill - Well, that's good 'cause we want quick decisions, but we also want access to an underwriter when we need one. And on your underinsurance point, that's a BIBA manifesto issue, I think that's really helpful. So, to be clear, in case anyone doesn't know, as I understand it, the broker will give you the risk data and you will say, okay, you know, we actually think that this particular client might need a higher sum insured of this. And if that client takes that higher sum insured, you waive the average clause, is that how that works?

Dave Martin - That's absolutely how it works. And we've got confidence in our database, and the way we've built the database is getting more and more accurate year on year. And as the accuracy improves, actually we can be more certain of outcome. And that's what's really important because we don't want to be binding any business where someone will suffer through an average clause. And as we continue to build out the proposition, you'll see exactly the same in floods, you'll see the same in turnover in wage roll, which is the new databases we've just deployed, where we're starting now to make judgment calls about, this is what we know, everything about this business, why does the presentation either look different or what aspects of this presentation do we need to do something with to support both the broker and the client in making the right decision?

Graeme Trudgill - That's excellent. Let's talk about some of your product innovations because we're in a really changing world. We've got new risks coming to us all of the time, new politics, new economics. So, how do you, as an insurer, adapt to offer the products that our members need for their clients, changing risks, things like cyber risks, things like intellectual property, how are you developing those with members now?

Dave Martin - What's really important is we monitor all opportunity in the business. So, we can see all our quotes that come through the door, we can see what those quotations are for, we can see what the trade codes are. So, we can start to easily spot, which is the starting point, where the gaps are or where areas that we're not serving or what underserving in a particular way. Also, talking to brokers through the various regional roadshows or at various events, we get feedback on where areas, where we could develop our product set in a different way or things we could add to our product set to make sure customers are more comfortable. And if you look at a whole host of things in terms of modular, combined business that enables much bigger breadth of opportunity than you see in most products. You see us building contractors combined, you see us launching cyber, you actually see us doing a whole host of things in the PI and D&O space. And on top of all of that, of course, we've recently purchased Probitas. So, Probitas gives us access to 200 more territories across the world, 200 territories that have launched seven new lines of business already this year. That is giving us opportunity, not only in the Lloyd's business, but enables our Mid-Market and regional businesses where more specialists covers are required for us to move into Lloyd's and provide the solution through Aviva group.

Graeme Trudgill - So basically, if a broker came to you with a risk and it wasn't really Aviva's cup of tea, you might be able to give it to Probitas and then they might be able to serve that broker that way?

Dave Martin - Exactly. So, we operate a full triage process. We actually wrote to brokers in the middle of last year when the Probitas deal was done to say, are you comfortable with us passing your quote information across to Probitas? That's exactly how it's happening both in Probitas Manchester, in London. And in some cases, you'll see us leading a schedule with Probitas following. So, also enabling capacity where big sums insured increases have been requested by the client. So, we can offer that within the same family. So, it's getting quite exciting in terms of the breadth of what we can offer, the scale of what we can offer and the outcome that we provide for our claim service, which will be more certain.

Graeme Trudgill - OK Dave, the conference theme was ‘a new era’. What does a new era look like for Aviva?

Dave Martin - Well, and this is challenging because of course a new era can mean now. It can mean 25 years time. So, if you look at what we're doing today, actually I would say from this time last year, it's a new era. So, if you look at the way we've developed our AI, the way we've developed our platforms, the way we've developed our CRM systems, actually all of that has gone live in fact in the last few weeks, so just before BIBA. So, to give listeners a sort of idea of what that actually means. So, if you were to send us a major Minifleet quote today, or a major Fleet quote, quite frankly, that quote 90% of those quotes are logged automatically within 30 minutes. Now when I say they're logged, that means not only are they ingested, i.e. they're automatically uploaded through AI, but also they go through all our transitional databases, all of our databases that look at storm, windstorm, theft, and they will arrive back in our local office by minute 31, which enables us to put underwriters on those quotes, but also more importantly, the underwriters have got all the information they need. And particularly on Fleet, it would have calculated the book price, the claims experience price, it even would have sent the product to the right level of underwriter with authority to handle that price. Now we talked about visibility and responsiveness earlier. And what about visibility? Now we've also launched this week, the broker portal, where for the minute that business has been allocated to an underwriter, within that timeline, the broker can log into our portal and actually see which underwriters got it. So, if you send us a quote, an hour later, you can just look on the system, you can see which underwriters got the quote. Exactly, where it is, you know if it's your preferred underwriter or somewhere you'd rather use, but also, and goes live this Friday, you'll also be able to quote accept online in Mid-Market and pull down the documents in PDF form. So, everything, and it's a bit like when I was talking about digital, the difference between digital and auto rate and underwriter engagement, is it still enables underwriters to have the right conversations in the right timescales, but most importantly, it frees up the brokers, give advice to their clients. And that's what's really important to us. How do we get our underwriters with all the best information they can get as quickly as they can, and then make a judgment call? Now of course, at exactly the same time, all of our business development teams can also see that quotes live in our platforms at that point. So, they will get alerts if it's in their broker panel, they can talk to their brokers about how to manage that account, they can talk about what that client needs, and we're starting to join up our underwriters and our business developers on behalf of brokers to make sure that we do the right thing for that broker. And if you actually start to look at how exciting this is becoming, where we had a big launch in the offices and our underwriters can't quite believe the level of data and granularity we are serving now to their desktops. And that's all about using data intelligently to get accurate pricing to support the brokers that support us. So, it’s this phrase, it takes partnership. Well, partnerships are so important to our success. We are a broker only part of the business. This is what we do for a living. We need brokers to be able to have the time to give advice and be certain when they place business with Aviva, the outcome will be protected. And that's our goal is to make sure there's always a better outcome when placed with us.

Graeme Trudgill - You've been a conference sponsor for, I think our records go back about 25 years and it went back beyond the record. So look, we're really grateful, the broking community. Thank you for supporting us for all of that time. Why is that so important to you?

Dave Martin - Well, it's interesting, I asked that question when I came out today, I said, how far can we really track back? So, I'm assured it was 27 years this year. So 27 years and look, two things. One, go back to the very first points I made around, actually understanding the industry, understanding what's moving in market, getting the market intelligence to be able to get the solutions. And if you are genuinely listening insurer and you want to build your business model in your strategy around what brokers need, BIBA is the perfect place to do it there is no doubt. In the number of people that I've seen go away from BIBA this year, particularly with the young broker event as well on day two. You can see the excitement of people understand what this industry offers the community, they understand what more we can do, they can understand how we start to drive our businesses. In actually being in a position to be able to say, we listened, we did, and that projected the customer outcome is about as perfect as it can be. So, hopefully it'll be another 27 years from now, whether it's in Manchester or not Graeme, that's up to you. But we're delighted to keep attending. And in fact, I think you'll find we've even booked all our venues on, but already because it is now such a busy and such a popular event.

Graeme Trudgill - Well, we have booked for Manchester for 2026, so you're safe there, I'm glad to say.

Dave Martin - So Graeme, following that, and of course the conference last week, is there anything you would like to see from insurers or brokers or other participants of that conference in terms of what happens next?

Graeme Trudgill - For me, it's about working together. So, I think we've done a lot of that with the FCA, we've done some great work with the ABI on cladded buildings and yourselves, and it's about really rolling up our sleeves, getting around the table and working as a combined industry for that greater good, because we all have our own competitive dynamics, our own interests. But I think when you're a trade body, you need to bring everybody together. And so from my perspective, there are a lot of changing risks. And what we've done with cladded buildings was quite unique in creating a whole, you know, reinsurance facility that you can place into. And the results of that have been fantastic. I think we've insured between us all about 700 of these cladded buildings needing remediation, worth about 15 billion pounds, billion pounds, in the sums insured. And that's because we’re all working collaboratively. So for me, I'm like a convener. I bring everyone together for the BIBA conference, and I mean everyone, it's not just brokers or insurers, it's loss adjusters, it's the software houses, it's the whole family of the insurance industry. And so, yeah, how can we work together for that greater good? And that's why we run different sessions on claims, on broker choices about, you know, their business models for the future, on the availability of insurance capacity, on AI, things like that, on business. So for me, if we can all feel inspired and go home and think like, how can we work together? And we've had so many people say, "Well, can I join a BIBA Committee, a BIBA advisory board? I want to be part of this journey. I want to put something back." And so, you know, we really value that. And Aviva, as a partner, you come to our partners meetings, we have separate meetings with you, and it's how can we work constructively on some of these manifesto issues that are so important for our clients at the end of the day.

Dave Martin - So Graeme, look, we've talked about a lot of things and covered a lot of topics. So, what you're actually doing to help promote brokers?

Graeme Trudgill - 25 years is a really long time in insurance broking, but I see perils changing. I certainly see, you know, cyber risk. We've got some legislation this year is going to bring in something called the Protect Duty. So, new liabilities on certain size businesses to mitigate the risk of a terror attacks, things like that. But what I do see is insurance brokers still being at the absolute forefront of managing risk over the next 25 years, because I've just placed BIBA’s insurances, and there were 17 different policies that we had to do. So, you know, D&O, EL,PL, events insurance for conference, and it's hugely complicated. And so, to have that broker there giving me that steer is vitally, vitally important. So, for me, I see us being business advisors, risk managers and insurance brokers. I see a real professionalism of the industry that's happened. I think since regulation, it's got more and more professional. So, it's about dealing with those risks of the future. We've got lots of political risks coming in now. You know, governments really affecting some of the things that we do, how we operate. So, a lot of change, and it's about ensuring those changes that we see coming our way.

Dave Martin - That's an excellent point, because actually just the breadth of discussion and the breadth of work BIBA do, really comes through at the conference. And I think that's quite incredible in terms of, you know, from one end to the other, right, from personal lines to global corporate. It's, and all of those, and you're quite right, all of those, I call them suppliers or specialist businesses that help clients get back on their feet as well. So, that's great. So, picking up on another topic of conference about regulation. So, regulation is quite a hot topic, and it has been for a few years now. Have you any concerns or any positive views of what may happen in the future?

Graeme Trudgill - So, regulation for many years has been an absolute landslide of new rules and requirements and discussion papers to think about and speeches to watch from FCA officials. And then, you know, we have to disseminate that to members, translate it, what do you need to do differently? What do you have to think about? And it's got to the point where, you know, we were the most expensive regulatory system in the world. And that's not helpful for productivity, for growth. This new government want growth. So, for many years, for six years, I think it was, I lobbied to have a growth and competitiveness objective onto the regulator, the FCA, because the FSA used to have that, but the FCA didn't. And so we thought, look, actually, that will make sure that what comes out of the regulator will be more thought through, will be more helpful to business, but we still want to keep clients safe at the end of the day. So, that objective came in towards the end of 2023. And since then, what we've done is we sort of bring the FCA into BIBA to make sure they really understand insurance brokers and small brokers, particularly small businesses, because obviously the FCA deal with big global banks and things. So, the FCA to be very fair to them, they've done exactly that. So, they've come on our regional tour all around the UK. They've met over 900 firms and talked to them about all of their issues. So, how does their reporting working? Is it to the satisfaction? And actually, we had a very small broker say, I had to do 47 reports of the FCA in the last year. That's way too many. Yep, we talked about the consumer duty and how the scope of the consumer duty actually, you have most commercial clients in there as well. Is that really what it's meant for? Because there's so much more work for brokers there. Surely the scope could be reviewed. So, we have in our manifesto a whole wish list, page 36, all the points that we want. And the FCA listened to us. They've been really, really good. We even went into the FCA and spoke to all of their insurance team, 300 people, about how regulation works for us. How we want to really, I think, cooperate with good regulation. But there are some things that we probably don't know that could be done a bit better. Now, what are the limitations of the software houses? And so what this has really resulted in is CP2512. So, this is a brand new consultation paper from the FCA launched at the BIBA Conference on day one with the excellent title, ‘simplifying the insurance rules’. So, with the number 2512, it literally is Christmas. So, for us, we are now really working with the FCA to get those responses in from members. So, we've just had some of our advisory board meetings and they're really pleased, they're keen to feed in. So, how can the fair value assessment process and the product value assessment process work quicker? If you've done a really comprehensive job in year one, do you need to do it again for year two, if nothing's changed? So, we think there can be improvements, stripping out some of the red tape, streamlining things a bit more. And that helps our productivity, which ultimately helps the government's growth objectives. And we want to support the new government, absolutely. We want to support the economy and grow, we want more clients to get the cover that they need. So, the more time we can spend with our customers at the front end and not in the back office, ticking this report, that report, the better. So CP2512's really, really welcome. It also talks about taking away some of the ICOBs, because the consumer duty is so overarching, you don't actually need all the specific ICOBs anymore. So, let's clear out the garage of some of those old rules. And the FCA have heard us, and they're doing that. So, I think now it's just making sure that we navigate that next bit and we get the best results that we can for everybody.

Dave Martin - I think that's really interesting, because I think the latest numbers, I think the industry contributes over 1% GDP to the UK economy. And our latest broker, Broker Barometer Survey, actually says 90% of brokers are really enthusiastic about their ability to grow in the next 12 months. And about 70% said, and that's not only organic, but it's also new new. And I suppose what would you as BIBA look to those brokers and do you have the same confidence as they would be?

Graeme Trudgill - We do have a lot of confidence in the members, because there's a lot of risks that, there's a protection gap out there that could be covered. So, cyber risk, for example, there's so much opportunity, so few clients have a standalone cyber policy. But actually, when we look at the risks, when we look at some of the big national brands that have had a cyber attack in these last few weeks, and you think, you know, if they had had a comprehensive cyber policy, and remember, cyber policies aren't just a cheque to give someone after that a loss, it's actually cyber as a service. So, it's there to help you horizon scan. It's there to help you recover your data if something happens to get your IT back up and running again to help with your reputation. So, I think that's a great growth opportunity. I think what we spoke about with underinsurance, making sure people get the right cover, is a great growth opportunity. BI periods, you know, is one year really enough? No way, is that enough for a lot of businesses. It might be for some. And of course, clients, you know, they've had difficult economic times, they want to get as affordable cover as they can. So, but what can we do to get them another year on there that isn't going to cost them too much? But, you know, we can make them understand what their exposures really are. So, I think as brokers, it's about bringing those clients on that journey and illustrating, you know, what are your risks? If the worst happens, you know, where would you get that new printer from? How long does that take to arrive and get up and running and be installed and everything else? And this is what we do. So, I think there is huge opportunity. And it's about us working with you, making sure you've got the new products coming through, making sure you've got the delivery systems with the e-trade, underwriters at the end of a phone when we need you. And so yeah, huge opportunity for growth in our sector.

Dave Martin - Graeme, what are you doing to actually promote insurance brokers?

Graeme Trudgill - Well, I think it's our job to, we’re a trade association, so we're there to help members trade. But to do that, all the public out there need to know about insurance brokers and the benefits that they bring. So, we've launched our first-ever national advertising campaign. It's called Ben the Broker. And it's there really to help people realise if you go to a broker, you can get choice, you can get advice. And they're there to help you through that whole process of arranging insurance, but also if a claim happens, to support you then. So, it's really simple. It's a couple of animations with an SME electrician and SME lady that wants to start a new office. And really, it's talking them through that journey. So, the aim is to really appeal to SMEs. We've got a target, I think 33 million people. And it starts on Sky. We were on all the national newspapers. We're doing social media with Facebook and Instagram. But we're also doing podcasts. And I think podcasts are the trendy thing right now. So, we want to make sure we're on there. So, we're on Spotify, radio, national radio. So, all of these things should get through to different people. And hopefully it'll be quite catchy. And we can do things with the animation. So, I guess it's new ground for us. But I think it's the right thing to do. To promote the sector, get people to realise, I should go to my local broker. And so yeah, everyone, get behind us. Start re-sharing and retweeting and everything else. And let's promote the sector like never before. Because in my lifetime, I cannot remember there ever being a national campaign to promote insurance brokers. So, I'm really excited about it. And I hope that we can get some better awareness out there.

Dave Martin - And I don't think, I don't think I can remember ever seeing a national advertising campaign. And I'm not a young man anymore. So, it's got to - so keep on that theme, of course. What are you doing to support younger brokers?

Graeme Trudgill - So, it's really important we keep that pipeline going. We've just had Young Broker Day at the BIBA Conference. And it was the best ever-attended Young Broker Day. Hundreds of young brokers, but also students from Manchester University, students from schools came along. And so we have different sessions for each of them. The Young Broker's element is really, really exciting, because so many of them enter our Young Broker of the Year competition. And some of them have come through the ranks. And they're now regional chairs of BIBA. And the perfect example of that is Jane Kielty of Aon, who 22 years ago, she was a Young Broker of the Year now, she's the CEO of Aon. So, there's a great story to tell. And honestly, the talent is incredible. Our Young Broker of the Year award, it was really difficult to pick a winner, because we had so many excellent finalists. Some of the Young Brokers had even started a brokerage from scratch. Others were national account directors and things like that. They're just so full of energy and enthusiasm. And so we wanted to bottle that and encourage it. But of course, we need to get them to be Young Brokers in the first place, the old adage about people falling into insurance. And so what we've got is we've got a talent toolkit. And that talent toolkit is such a good initiative, because it's basically like a presentation. And we piloted it in London. So, we went to a couple of schools in underprivileged areas of London and Tower Hamlets. And the last thing, the students there probably wanted was some insurance guys coming in and talking about it. But we went in with a wonderful presentation with some Young Brokers came with us from our London and South East Committee. And they talked about things like, so how much do you all think Lionel Messi's legs are insured for? And we had a little competition going, it's higher, higher. Do you want to have a guess?

Dave Martin - Oh, no idea. 20 million.

Graeme Trudgill - 600 million.

Dave Martin - Oh, there you go. That's what I know about football.

Graeme Trudgill - There we go. And so we make it fun. And we get them interested. And then they were like, so we said, would you like to come in the city? And you can come in some of our members offices. You can do a tour of Lloyd’s. You can come to the insurer's offices. And get a flavour of it all. And actually, we had several hundred come in. We had them in the BIBA advisory boards. So, they would get an understanding of what the issues are that we're dealing with. And so much enthusiasm. So, some of them have already started internships. Lots of them, they're connected on LinkedIn. They want to start in the industry. And we've just started the latest rounds of work placements. So, I think as of today, we've got 56 coming into London, which is really, really exciting, proper placements. And this is just one region. BIBA has 11 regions all across the UK. So, this is happening in Manchester. This is happening all over the country as we go to careers fairs schools, colleges, universities and say, come and join an insurance broker. You don't need to have gone to University. You can come in with some good GCSEs and you can have a fabulous career. And it's not about being in a call centre. You can start on sales. You can move into claims. You can move into marketing. You can get into management. So, there's a proper ladder for you as well. And we've seen some of these young brokers go through that ladder and succeed. So, we're really enthusiastic about it. And there's a lot of work to do to bring those young people in.

Dave Martin - That sounds like an awful lot of opportunity for Ben the Broker to me and his podcasts. It's how you start to bring that talent in. And of course, this is something I'm really keen on as well. Because, of course, I haven't got a degree. I started in the industry on private motor.

Graeme Trudgill - Same as me. Same as me.

Dave Martin - Many years ago. And here I am. So, proving that you can operate in this industry and this industry is open for all. And you look at how we look to support through our Future Leader Programme. We're on cohort seven, so the, of the two year courses, 52% of the brokers that have been through that programme are now at senior levels or on board positions in those brokers. And of course, a bit like yourselves, we've launched Rising Stars for the younger brokers to actually come in and also supporting with the apprenticeship levy or the Aviva apprenticeship levy to those brokers as well. So look, I think the more we can do in partnership as well, the better this will get because we need new talent in the industry and what you're doing is great. And actually, I think I might be stealing Ben the broker for some of those things as well. So look, the end of a long week or a long two weeks, if you like now, Graeme, we're still recovering from BIBA clearly. We've got a lot of takeaways. What's your biggest takeaway from BIBA 2025?

Graeme Trudgill - I think that there's a huge amount of energy and optimism in the sector. I think from Gareth Southgate, it was about doing the right thing. And I think that's a really good message that we wanted to focus on. And then also for me, I think it's about feeling inspired. And I think things like Young Broker Day, things like the Women in Insurance breakfast, some of the motivational speakers that we had, some of the opportunity that's coming our way with new products and innovations. So, I want people to have left the conference feeling inspired about the fantastic future ahead of us. So Dave, what was your main takeaway from the BIBA conference?

Dave Martin - I think I could sum it up as partnership. Partnership across the industry, across many different parties, all working together for the sole purpose of protecting customers and ensuring risk transfer. And I think all of us walking away from BIBA, one will understand the power of partnership, understand how we all work together, understand how sharing and making sure that we're aligned is so important. And actually, the one thing I am learning, post BIBA, of course, is everything that hits LinkedIn, everything that's on the internet, actually there's loads of things I missed. So, one of my jobs now is to go back through those things I missed and make sure I catch up as well. So, but certainly on behalf of the entire industry, Graeme, your team and you have done a brilliant job. And thank you for taking us into the new era. There's, this industry would not work without BIBA. The event, I do know, organising events is a big, big job. And to organise events, it's so popular. I, and also so, so additive to what the customer outcome and the broker outcome looks like. I think you should be very proud. And I think we're all privileged to be able to join and also add our, add our content.

Graeme Trudgill - Thanks very much. It's a massive effort from the BIBA team, and appreciate it. Thanks everyone for watching. And if you want to do more with BIBA, please get in touch, get involved with our committee or advisory board, and we'll see you at conference in Manchester next year.